?

Log in

No account? Create an account

Previous Entry | Next Entry

BSG 4.05: "The Road Less Traveled"

No Lee...
No Lee...
Still no Lee...

And no Roslin either... ::pout::
I didn't even catch a glimpse of Adama~~  ::sigh::

Did notice one mistake I made 2 weeks ago -- apparently Hotdog went with Kara too!  So who's the CAG on Galactica these days?!

So bored I went back to work on my LJ layout.  Ron, why are you doing this to me?! ::groan::

Better luck next week?!
 

Comments

( 17 comments — Leave a comment )
asta77
May. 3rd, 2008 04:28 am (UTC)
danceswithwords were talking about Aztec Rex on IM rather than BSG. That should tell you our feelings.
xwacky
May. 3rd, 2008 07:45 am (UTC)
::sigh:: I'm glad it's not just me then. ;)

What's worse was I sat through the second viewing while working on my LJ, and still can't get into it...
asta77
May. 3rd, 2008 09:24 pm (UTC)
I was half watching Doctor Who (I had already seen the ep) and as soon as it was over announced to DWW that I couldn't watch BSG again. You are braver than I. ;)
xwacky
May. 4th, 2008 04:22 pm (UTC)
Speaking of Doctor Who, I've never really watched that show. But this past friday, I had it on while I was working on my journal layout and waiting for BSG to come on again. I wasn't really paying attention, but some of its plot must've entered into my subconscious because that night I dreamed of Laura, without her wig, dying from cancer, and having visions (about Earth I think).

This is odd. I've only dreamed of BSG character once before. Yap, you've guessed it -- it was Lee!

The reason I stayed for a second viewing was because I wanted to catch a small Lee, Laura, or Adama scene I might've missed. I couldn't believe ALL three of them was missing in this one! But I was disappointed.
helen_c
May. 3rd, 2008 07:33 am (UTC)
Seems to be a pretty common reaction, and not only among Lee fans. Sigh.

See, this is why I'm not even trying to watch the show as it airs (not that it stops me from reading other people's reactions and spoilers).

Is it that the writing is bad, or that our expectations were too high after a year of hiatus, or that we're just so sick of Kara?

Let's hope for better days to come, then...
xwacky
May. 3rd, 2008 07:59 am (UTC)
I don't know about others, but I'm sick of Kara and her destiny; Baltar and his new found sanctity. The writing didn't help, the acting was... ::sigh::

The only thing that remotely captured my attention this week was Sharon and (can't believe I'm saying this) Helo. These two, especially Sharon, had to be kicking themselves thinking they'd left their baby back on Galactica for this?!
helen_c
May. 3rd, 2008 08:20 am (UTC)
I don't know about others, but I'm sick of Kara and her destiny; Baltar and his new found sanctity.
I have yet to find a BSG fan that tells me all the prophecy/destiny/religion thing they keep shoving down our throats doesn't annoy him.
Of course, that may be because there are several "tribes" in the fandom, and I'm keeping my interactions firmly inside the Lee-loving one, lol.

But seriously, when I want to think about religion, I can watch ST DS9 and consider the Bajorans. And when I want to think about prophecies and what they mean, I can watch Babylon 5, thank you very much.
What I liked in the first two seasons of BSG was the humans, struggling to stay alive after surviving the destruction of everything they knew and built and loved.
I was never interested in the Cylons (and I don't think I'll ever forgive RDM for trying to convince us that what they did to the humans wasn't so bad after all, which sometimes seems to be the point he's making), nor in Leoben and all his mystical talk.
And I'll stop ranting now. :)

The only thing that remotely captured my attention this week was Sharon and (can't believe I'm saying this) Helo.
Okay, now *there's* a sign that the episode was bad. :D
xwacky
May. 3rd, 2008 07:35 pm (UTC)
...and I'm keeping my interactions firmly inside the Lee-loving one, lol.

Didn't you know we are the most sane ones in the fandom?! ::wink::

...Or NOT! Just kidding...

In all seriousness, I really dislike Leoban. No, make it "loathe" instead! I didn't even care for him when Papadama beat the crap out of him, and liked him less and less each time he appeared, spewing craps about destiny and so forth. Come to think of it, it was his appearance in the regular series that marked my declining fondness for Kara. I can deal with her romp with Baltar, her relationship with Anders, it's her connection with Leoban that turns me completely cold towards her, really...

I was never interested in the Cylons (and I don't think I'll ever forgive RDM for trying to convince us that what they did to the humans wasn't so bad after all, which sometimes seems to be the point he's making), nor in Leoben and all his mystical talk.

You are not alone on this. I've said again and again (at The Adama Realm) how lame it gets (for me) every time TPTB digs deeper into Cylon's world. I get the feeling RDM or TPTB is saying the humans brought the destruction onto themselves.

While I appreciate the "non crispy black and white" world BSG portrays, I take issue with the "there's no evil in the world, everything is a perspective" point of view. Ahh, I can go on and on about this, but I'll stop for now. Hmm, maybe I (or someone) will start a thread discussion about this at The Adama Realm...

And I'll stop ranting now. :)

Don't stop, please!
helen_c
May. 4th, 2008 09:33 am (UTC)
In all seriousness, I really dislike Leoban. No, make it "loathe" instead!
Right with you there.
No one tries to make Six the good guy, so I don't get the fascination with Leoben. I know everyone is entitled to their opinion, but every time I see a fic labeled as Kara/Leoben, I run away screaming.
He's just an annoying character (as people who talk only in riddles and half-truths tend to be), and he's sick and twisted. And oh, yeah, he's a bad guy, and not in an endearing kind of way.

I get the feeling RDM or TPTB is saying the humans brought the destruction onto themselves.
Me too.
And we're getting into one of my main issues with the show, right here.
I don't understand where the Cylons come from.
I get that the humans created robots to help them, used them as servants until said robots rebelled and the first war took place.
Which begs the question, why did the Cylons rebel? Did the humans create the Centurions models and gave them feelings, or what?
If they were just robots who were supposed to do manual labor, and programmed to do only that, why would they have rebelled in the first place??

And, even more importantly, why, oh why, did the Cylons create humanoid models? Were the Centurions self-conscious enough to want to re-create humans, were they intelligent enough to come up with the strategy of sending humanoid Cylons into the Colonies and have them be dormant agents? And if the Centurions created the human models, where the frak does their monotheist religion come from??

So, yes, the humans did have a part of responsibility in what happened to them, because they created the machines that would ultimately destroy them, but was it ever said on the show that they treated the Cylons badly while they were using them as servant? Badly enough to 'justify' genocide, the farms, the experimentation on human subjects?

Don't get me wrong; humans aren't perfect by any means, and have a lot to learn and a lot of progress to make, but it still doesn't make it okay to destroy twelve planets and try to exterminate them to the last one.

And frankly, the more I learn about the Cylons, the less sympathetic I found them.

I'm all for shades of grey, too, but the point was made on Star Trek that, "you can call the sun cold, it won't change its temperature." Some things are just unforgivable, and I'm with Lee on the Cylon hatred. What I don't get is how Helo can forgive them; sure, he married one of them, but even he should be able to see that Athena is an exception, and has stopped speaking for her own race a long time ago.

While I appreciate the "non crispy black and white" world BSG portrays, I take issue with the "there's no evil in the world, everything is a perspective" point of view.
See above.

It's true that everyone has their reasons to act like they do (that's what makes things so complicated), but that doesn't mean that the actions themselves should be forgiven or forgotten.

Don't stop, please!
Hee, well, I didn't, obviously. :)

I wonder if the show will ever adress any of that...
And I wonder how things will end between the humans and the Cylons (at this point, I guess the "best" we can hope for is the Cylons going back to their homeworld or the Colonies and vowing to leave the humans alone (until the next time), echoing the "it happened before, it will happen again," motto).
xwacky
May. 6th, 2008 05:37 am (UTC)
...every time I see a fic labeled as Kara/Leoben, I run away screaming.

I'm right there running with you! ;)

Leoban annoys me not only because he talks in this so-called riddles, but also because he's the one that brought on this "destiny" stuff.

I wish the writers allowed Kara solid character growth like Lee had. Instead, I see her as being "over-worked". If there are indeed changes to the character (which I failed to see so far), they didn't come from within (i.e. her maturing process). These changes are the work of some unknow, possibly mystic power that's outside of her control. As such, Kara had become a symbolic token, a mere caricature to me. :(

I don't understand where the Cylons come from.

Hee, I've been wondering along the same line. Why did the Centurions rebel the first time? Back then, did they have the "reasoning chips" that Six/Natalie gave them in Six of One? I'm inclined to think they had to have them in order to be able to *rebel* against their masters.

So I think the reasoning ability was taken away from them after those "skin-head" cylons came along. But by whom? The skin-head cylons? Or their common "creator"? This begs the question: who/what created the humanoid cylons?

If the Centurions did, they were in for a rotten deal: instead of being "enslaved" by the humans (don't ask me how do one enslave a machine), they are now enslaved by their own creations!

The more I think about it, the more I don't believe the Centurions created the 12 models. Maybe "mad" human scientist(s) created them despite the fact human were at war with the robots...

The point is though, when it comes down to it, I don't really care about how did the cylons come along, or who they really are. They don't interest me all that much beyond being the antagonists. It worries me when the writers decide to take away the antagonists in a story, or turn them into protagonists -- I would've felt very cheated!
helen_c
May. 6th, 2008 03:05 pm (UTC)
Instead, I see her as being "over-worked". If there are indeed changes to the character (which I failed to see so far), they didn't come from within (i.e. her maturing process).
They do use her too much, which is part of the problem, I guess. It started out as an ensemble show, but now it's the Kara show.
I wonder if we'd have a problem with it if it had been the Lee show, though.

But yes, to me, she's still same old frakked up Kara struggling with prophecies and destiny.

If the Centurions did, they were in for a rotten deal: instead of being "enslaved" by the humans (don't ask me how do one enslave a machine), they are now enslaved by their own creations!
Unless they're actually working with (and not for) the humanoid Cylons, and we can't see it.

As for enslaving machines... Well, if the machines were self-aware, that would be something else (Star Trek spent a lot (and I mean a *lot* of time pondering that question, with Data and with the Doctor). But we've seen no indication that the first Cylons had a personality.

Maybe "mad" human scientist(s) created them despite the fact human were at war with the robots...
Hee. We share a brain.
For a long while, I thought the humans were going to go to the Cylons homeworld and find out that there were humans there, directing the Cylons' actions.
It doesn't look like the show is going to go that way, but until proven otherwise, it'll remain my working theory.

You know, I wonder if the show is going to provide answers to these questions. I wish they would, instead of having the Cylons talk about religion...

It worries me when the writers decide to take away the antagonists in a story, or turn them into protagonists -- I would've felt very cheated!
Me too. That's why I've been so disappointed in S3... What drew me to the show (and yes, it's the 1000th time I'm saying it) was the struggle of the humans to survive the annihilation of their entire way of life. I wish the show had spent more time on that (they lost their artists, their teachers, their writers, their culture, their scientists, countless books forever lost... And that's not even touching the topic of the families of the survivors...) instead of telling us more about the Cylons.

Ah, well, who knows, maybe I'll be blown away by S4?
xwacky
May. 6th, 2008 08:23 pm (UTC)
But yes, to me, she's still same old frakked up Kara struggling with prophecies and destiny.

Kara had been, up till the moment she "died", an over-grown child to me. She was mostly self-centered (as a child would). I was hoping she would grow up a bit and start thinking how her action/choice would affect other people. But she never did, even after she came back from "death". She's still the same impulsive girl with a one-track mind on doing what she wants to do, consequences be damned. Sure she believed Adama would wait for her well past the agreed rendezvous time--why wouldn't he? She is the center of all things, doesn't everything else revolve around her?

The sad thing is I'm afraid the writers are feeding into it, and making her the center of everything. That's why I don't see character development with her. Because there's no need, she's the intrinsic hero.

The writers "dragged" her character all over the places (including the "netherworld"), having her do all kinds of crazy things, and when asked "why", they explained with one word -- "Destiny"!

Yet, so many choices Kara made are still confounded to me: why did she go for a one night stand with Baltar? Was she too drunk to notice who she went with, or did she choose him on purpose, or maybe she simply acted without thinking, an impulse? I wish we were given an explicit look into her reasonings.

Also, why did Kara run off to propose and marry Sam hours after she and Lee declared love for each other? Because Sam was safe and easy? That didn't make much sense to me: how hard could it be to stay with a man who openly declared his love? Much harder than being shackled with a man she hardly knew?!

So she kicked Lee to the curb, but a little over a year later, she changed her mind yet again and wanted to have an affair with him. Is Lee only good enough to be her *illicit* lover, but not her legitimate one-and-only?! What drove her decisions?

I tend to think she did everything by impulse. Whatever felt good/right to her at the moment, she plunges headlong into it.

I wonder if we'd have a problem with it if it had been the Lee show, though.

The thing with Lee is he's quite introspective. I've always understood where he came from, what made him do what he did. Even when I don't agree with him, I feel for him (the same goes to Roslin and Adama). But most of all, Lee is endearing to me because I see this character learn and grow from his mistakes. As such, he has become my hook into the show. Lee has taken me on this emotional journey, through the near annihilation of an entire race, struggling for everyday survival, and in the process, discover who he really is, and what he is made of... So yeah, I wouldn't have any problem if it had been the Lee show! ;)
xwacky
May. 6th, 2008 08:25 pm (UTC)
I typed up this reply, only had lj telling me it's too long. So I had to break it into 2 parts... :b

Unless they're actually working with (and not for) the humanoid Cylons, and we can't see it.

I thought it was said (beginning of season 3?) that the Centurions were programed to protect and not harm the humanoid cylons. So I'd say they were programmed to work *for* the "skin-heads". That is, until Six gave them the "reasoning chip", which I presume altered those toasters' program. Come to think of it, it's quite amusing to me that these computerized robots didn't have reasoning/logic before!

As for enslaving machines... Well, if the machines were self-aware, that would be something else

Self-aware as in having the concept of "me"? Like "Why should I be doing such & such?" So when the humans told the robots to cleanup the mess and not paying them above the minimum wage, they were none too happy about it and decided to rebel. No wonder it took those Centurions (with the reasoning chip) 22 days to clean the blood off the basestar walls! :b

Seriously, like you said, how did the humans mistreat the Centurions in the first place?

We share a brain.

Hee, that's quite a compliment! ;)

For a long while, I thought the humans were going to go to the Cylons homeworld and find out that there were humans there, directing the Cylons' actions.

Do the Cylons have a homeworld? I wondered about that. I thought the reason the first and second cylon wars broke out, like any wars, was to fight for land and resources. The religion stuff was only used to incite those to fight the war. I thought the cylons wanted to take over the twelve planets so that they *can* have a homeworld...

What drew me to the show (and yes, it's the 1000th time I'm saying it) was the struggle of the humans to survive the annihilation of their entire way of life.

Between you and me, the same thing probably has been said 2000 times... ;)

I too am interested in looking into how this pared down society could survive and maintain their old way of life. Is the old way of life even viable under such extreme duress? Is democracy a luxury that can only exist/achieve in peace time?

Edited at 2008-05-06 08:31 pm (UTC)
helen_c
May. 7th, 2008 05:01 am (UTC)
She's still the same impulsive girl with a one-track mind on doing what she wants to do, consequences be damned.
Which can be a good thing, every once in a while, but it's true that she tends to disregard how much she can hurt other people.

Because there's no need, she's the intrinsic hero.
Which is another problem I have with the character. It constantly feel like the writers are winking at us, telling us, "See, we get it. Heroes can be flawed. So, we'll give you Kara, who is frakked up, emotionally unstable, but doesn't she kick ass."
It's heavy handed... I prefer Lee, because he can be pissy and self-righteous and make something incredibly brave at the same time.

That didn't make much sense to me: how hard could it be to stay with a man who openly declared his love?

My theory is that she loves Lee, and she got scared of screwing up and breaking whatever they had (or scared that he would end up believing she wasn't good enough for him), so she decided not to give their couple a chance, and broke things off before it could start.
Did she have to marry Sam to drive her point home? No, but I can see her fearing that Lee wouldn't let her go without a fight, so she went with the only thing she could think of that would make him hate her.
Not that what she did was forgiveable, but I can kind of understand it...

Is Lee only good enough to be her *illicit* lover, but not her legitimate one-and-only?! What drove her decisions?
Well, all she said was that marriage was sacred (since she believes in the gods, taking a vow before them counts a lot). But then, why feel free to cheat on her husband?

Self-aware as in having the concept of "me"? Like "Why should I be doing such & such?"
Yes. Once you become aware that there's you and others, and there are things you shouldn't do if you don't want to hurt others, and you're aware that death would mean you wouldn't exist anymore, the lines would tend to blur. But again, we've seen no indication that the Centurions were anything but machines, with very little thought-processes.

Do the Cylons have a homeworld?
I think it was said in the mini that after the first war, they retreated to a planet outside Colonial space, and were never seen since then.
And in Hero, Bill said that he lead a mission to the border of Cylon space.
What I do wonder is if they colonized other planets on "their" side of space, though, or if they just remained on one planet until they were ready to attack the Colonies.

I wondered about that. I thought the reason the first and second cylon wars broke out, like any wars, was to fight for land and resources. The religion stuff was only used to incite those to fight the war. I thought the cylons wanted to take over the twelve planets so that they *can* have a homeworld...
Either the show was vague on the subject, or I haven't been paying attention (which is probable, since I tend not to listen too closely to the Cylons).
But I got the feeling that the first war happened because the Cylons wanted to be 'free' and escape the Colonies. The religion happened between the first and second wars, and the second war happened because the Cylons had decided that the humans didn't deserve to live (but then, why have farms and try to understand how humans reproduce?)
But I might be wrong.

:)
xwacky
May. 7th, 2008 06:46 pm (UTC)
[Impulsiveness] can be a good thing, every once in a while...

Definitely true, as the case with Lee. The way he flew down that conveyor tunnel had a bit of impulsiveness involved. However, when someone is relentlessly impulsive, that could be a problem, and it gets old after awhile.

It constantly feel like the writers are winking at us, telling us, "See, we get it. Heroes can be flawed. So, we'll give you Kara, who is frakked up, emotionally unstable, but doesn't she kick ass."... I prefer Lee...

I see Lee as a well-rounded protagonist. Like the best of us, he has faults and makes mistakes. But even at his worst, I was able to get into his head, "see" and understand his thinking process. As such, I get to see him get past his funk, (at least attempting to) overcome his mistakes. His character matured and grew up right in front of my eyes.

With Kara however, I wasn't able to look into her head and understand her. I feel the writers are too busy at having her do the next "unexpected" thing that they don't bother to explain the "whys". A fellow bsg fan described her to me as being consistently inconsistent, which I think fits her to a tee. Nothing she did in the show, however unconventional or unethical, were ever wrong in the end. Even when she "killed" herself, she came back an Angel. So there wasn't a need for her character to change, to mature; and she never did (so far).

so she decided not to give their couple a chance, and broke things off before it could start.

But it had already started. When two people profess love for each other, in that intimate manner, whether or not alcohol was involved, things had already started, big time.

The point is, I never got her doubts and fears from watching that episode (and the ones that followed). As far as I'm concerned, your theory (a very plausible one) is a fanon instead of canon to excuse what she did.

You see, based on what I saw, I feel she loves Lee. However, she also loves Anders. She doesn't know which men she loves more, but she sensed Anders is easier to..."control" (for lack of a better word), and more prone to turn a blind eye to what she does. So when Lee suggested her to break things off with Anders in the morning, she panicked and ran off to *marry* him instead...

all she said was that marriage was sacred (since she believes in the gods, taking a vow before them counts a lot). But then, why feel free to cheat on her husband?

Actually, I think she gets off on the illicitness of the affair with this beautiful man. Kara had always frowned at convention and ethics, so the illicitness shouldn't bother her. That way, she also didn't have to commit to Lee. It's a win-win situation for her if only Lee had cooperated...

But again, we've seen no indication that the Centurions were anything but machines, with very little thought-processes.

Hmmm, that remains to be seen I guess. From the way the Centurions were introduced in this series, that certainly is true. With the missing "reasoning-chip", I don't see how they can be self-aware. Unless it turns out these Centurions were "dumbed down" after the first Cylon War.

I think it was said in the mini that after the first war, they retreated to a planet outside Colonial space, and were never seen since then.

I could be wrong, but I've always thought they retreated to the SPACE outside the colonial space, not a planet. I've pictured these cylons "lived" in space somewhere with no place to really call home. Hence they came back -- "humanity's children came home" to reclaim the planets.

I got the feeling that the first war happened because the Cylons wanted to be 'free' and escape the Colonies. The religion happened between the first and second wars, and the second war happened because the Cylons had decided that the humans didn't deserve to live (but then, why have farms and try to understand how humans reproduce?)

Very plausible! :)

Edited at 2008-05-07 06:55 pm (UTC)
helen_c
May. 8th, 2008 07:25 pm (UTC)
A fellow bsg fan described her to me as being consistently inconsistent, which I think fits her to a tee. Nothing she did in the show, however unconventional or unethical, were ever wrong in the end.
And that's part of my problem with the show as a whole. Everyone is always so quick to blame Lee for his mistakes (both the other characters and the other fans, sometimes), yet Kara gets forgiven no matter what (as does Helo).

Consistently inconsistent fits the bill, all right. :)

When two people profess love for each other, in that intimate manner, whether or not alcohol was involved, things had already started, big time.
Things had started and I'm sure she must have seen it coming for a while. But, they hadn't gone public yet, hadn't even admitted to themselves. And there, yes, they did acknowledge their feelings, but they didn't go public with it, and I think it makes a difference. Announcing the world that you're in love with someone else takes it to a level of commitment she wasn't ready for; it would have made things more real than they were.
That's how I fanwank it, anyhow.

She doesn't know which men she loves more, but she sensed Anders is easier to..."control" (for lack of a better word), and more prone to turn a blind eye to what she does.
Not sure about the control part, but it's true that he's... paler, than Lee, somehow. He's not quite as obstinate, not as strong willed and strong minded, not quite a match for her. I think she also was scared of how strong her feelings for Lee were; it left her vulnerable, and she doesn't like that, so she tried to take control back by leaving first.

I could be wrong, but I've always thought they retreated to the SPACE outside the colonial space, not a planet.
I'm really not sure. I always pictured a planet in my mind, but I can't be sure whether it came from the show, or not...
xwacky
May. 10th, 2008 09:09 am (UTC)
Announcing the world that you're in love with someone else takes it to a level of commitment she wasn't ready for; it would have made things more real than they were.

There you go, I think you are right about that. And there lies my theory that Kara never loved Lee as much as he did her. Sure he's her friend, best in fact. But as far as the love of her life goes, there's always been someone else besides Lee as well...

Not sure about the control part, but it's true that he's... paler, than Lee, somehow.

I know "control" is a bad word, I just couldn't think of a better word at the time. I don't think Kara wanted to "boss" Anders around. She just does whatever she wants and sensed Anders would not object to her. Well, I don't care what others say about Anders, he's a milktoast!
( 17 comments — Leave a comment )

Latest Month

November 2012
S M T W T F S
    123
45678910
11121314151617
18192021222324
252627282930 
Powered by LiveJournal.com
Designed by chasethestars